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Is there a lwa/orisha associated with this Catholic saint? I know it's a rather basic question, but the tribe seems to be slowing down, so I thought a little convo might liven things a bit...
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Re: Saint Andrew
Fri, September 11, 2009 - 10:22 AMAy yi yi... this may be offensive to some but I would go on anyways... I feel that the time has come where we as practitioners do not have to hide behind pop religions guise to practice the cultures of Africa no longer... for me that is one of the reasons I gravitate to the "African side" of Orisha etc. Not saying that it is wrong or does'nt work... because it has a culture all its own but I'm more interested in taking it back to its roots. Sometimes I'll go to a house and I may get a consultation and one of the things suggested would be to light a Santa Clara candle for this or a St. Peter candle for that and I would respectfully bow out because that is not where my heart is... I find it challenging to find a full African house around these parts and I've only been to one... the teachings are night and day even but each is unique and has its own beauty.
I know its not what you asked but like you said a little convo would liven things up a bit... oui !!!! -
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Re: Saint Andrew
Fri, September 11, 2009 - 10:41 AMI totally agree with Crystal about going with what FEELS right. But if someone says "Light a Candle to St. Peter", why not light a candle to Legba....or give Legba some kind of offering? (If not Legba, then somehow, the energy of the Crossroads.)
Myself, I'm a pretty international person, and I love the syncretic way that world religions combine with each other to evoke Worldwide Archetypal Energies which come from Humanity's "Collective Unconscious." To me, this is a creative way of keeping in touch with strong primal energies even while one is separated from one's homeland....
www.kheper.net/topics/Jun...scious.html
So, I say, that St. Andrew is associated (syncretized, if you like that term) with 3 Lwa:
1. The Baron Samedi
2. Cousin Azaka
3. Legba
If you go to this website (where there is wonderful art), you will see that Baron Samedi is associated with St. Andrew, and Cousin Azaka is associated with St. Andre'. To my mind, these are both the same, Andre' being the French version of Andrew.
research.ucsb.edu/cbs/image...zaSite.swf
As for Legba, I associate him with St. Andrew because St. Andrew is associated with the X-shaped cross. Legba is associated with the X-shaped crossroads, plus, as St. Peter, carries 2 keys, crossed in an X-shape. -
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Re: Saint Andrew
Fri, September 11, 2009 - 11:14 AMAaah Maggie... thats just it. The religion once crossed over to the west has formed into something quite uniqe and beautiful but some of the time I find that some practitioners would look at Legba, or Oya, or Ogun as an indigenous powerful character left for the "heavy hitters" of the arts. Now as a spiritual person, it is vital to learn All paths and virtues of spirituality, Orisha, Vodun, Palo, Kabballa,Islam, Christianity Espiritismo, etc. and not have a closed eye on either one. But I'm just saying personally even though I may not know much about "ATR's" that is where I feel most connected... and I felt that connection through the almost nightly dreams I would have of say a snake guiding me to a prayer service in the sky, or hugging the girl in the yellow dress taking care of all the children... these dreams make me feel a sense of love because of the spirits wanting to communicate with me and show guidance. Then there is the whole unity between the male female/ God Goddess elements that work with nature that I truly love that I did not find in "pop religiion" I can go for days but I made my point. I'm learning from the love I have of this.
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Re: Saint Andrew
Fri, September 11, 2009 - 9:56 PMNo Crystal, you're fine! Entirely fine! I love the passion you bring with you over this particular topic. And I understand -- you're wanting to bypass what was added on, and head back into the heart of the religion. I actually had that view when I began to learn about Vodou; I saw Santeria as a murky, brackish sort of system, muddling what was originally totally African into a Christianized hybrid. But I eventually came to view it as something entirely unique unto itself. You and Miss Wedosi might have a lot to talk about then Crystal! Lol!
And Maggie, thank you so much! I never would have seen Baron Samedi associated with him, nor Ellegua. The reason I asked in the first place is because there's a large number of places down here that bear St. Andrew's name, and thought it might be interesting to see if anything fit with him. But the Baron and Ellegua? Not what I expected. But I suppose I can see it now! Especially around Spring Break... stupid SB'ers, falling off our roofs and balconies >.<
I have to be careful now -- Crystal AND Maggie in one thread! Oh dear >.<.
(Btw, Maggie: did you get the personal message I sent you a few days back?) -
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Re: Saint Andrew
Sat, September 12, 2009 - 8:17 AMAnd don't forget, too, that in Europe, many of the old indigenous and pagan gods/goddesses were supplanted with Christian saints. Some day I'd like to make a calendar that might help to take back these Old Ones.
In Europe, many of the Christian Churches dedicated to St. Andrew and St. Michael were built on old Pagan sites where the Gods of the Sun were honored in the Ancient times....
The Crossroads is often associated with the Sun and the Moon......
Other saints, such as St. Bridget, combined living human beings with ancient Goddesses of the land.....in a way, the human woman known as Bridget might have been an Avatar of the Goddess Bridget.....! The Voudou Loa Ma'man Brigit may have also been brought with the Irish to the Caribbean and syncretized through contact with Voudou.
Here's an article about this kind of thing:
www.suite101.com/article.c...dane/78776
The article references the book __Jambalaya__ by Luisah Teish, which I greatly recommend for a beginning practice of African/American-based spirituality.... -
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Re: Saint Andrew
Sat, September 12, 2009 - 9:02 AMHey Boka... I'm so glad to see you put up a pic. and thanks for the understanding, I was sorta nervous I would start a war...lol .. and Maggie yeah christianity is parrallel to many of the "pagan" religions... Mary and baby Jesus symbolising Isis and baby Horus.... The Christmas tree symbolising the honor of Nimrod by his Mother.... Santeria, only about 35% African... it is mostly catholic I have discovered. See but with "pagan" religion, there is an equality that is needed that is lacking in monotheistic religion. Or so they want you to believe.
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Re: Saint Andrew
Thu, September 17, 2009 - 7:17 AMJust found this in the course of my research:
"Simbi is also a lwa of communication. Things regarding communication which move at the speed of light are in Simbi's domain (such as nerve impulses, Internet, electricity.) He is associated with crossroads and his veve encompasses the equal-armed cross (see above). There are many Simbi, so the colors favored for each will vary. In my own peristyle, I was taught by my Papa Kanzo to associate Andezo with Turquoise and Red; Makaya with Red and Black, Dlo with Blue and Green. Our house associates Simbi with the image of the Three Kings. I realize I am being very radical here, and not using the traditional chromolithograph of the Kings. But as an artist, I am exercising my right to bring forth images that work for me. Other houses use St. Andrew, though that image most often refers to Baron Kalfour. Each house in Haiti has it's favorites, but these seem to be the most common."
www.sosyetedumarche.com/html/simbi.html
So, there seems to be a theme here with St. Andrews (the X-man!) representing spiritual entities that are associated with the Crossroads and also the Sun and/or Moon.
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Re: Saint Andrew
Thu, September 17, 2009 - 8:28 AMThanks Maggie. I have found alot of great info on their site. I would love to visit their hounfour in PA someday soon.
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Re: Saint Andrew
Fri, September 18, 2009 - 12:46 AMWonderful find Miss Maggie! It's very interesting... although, last I checked, nerve impulses only capped off at 300 meters per second... Perhaps speed of light is a hyperbole, or a figure of speech? Hm... the serpent magician... interesting.
Do you think the Lwa are attracted to areas that bear their saints' names?
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Re: Saint Andrew
Fri, September 18, 2009 - 6:19 AM>Do you think the Lwa are attracted to areas that bear their saints' names?
Hm...interesting question.
I think that the Lwa are attracted to sincere requests for their help/contact when accompanied by the proper offerings.
However, I am thinking of this....perhaps a place was named for St. Andrew (for example) because in old Pagan times it was a place where people came together to honor the Sun. In that case, it might be considered a "crossroads" and might also be connected to deities/spirits/loas that are connected with a "crossroads" and the "Sun"......what do you think? ;-) -
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Re: Saint Andrew
Fri, September 18, 2009 - 1:16 PMIt might ring true for places within Europe, Miss Maggie, but the place I have in mind is far from the eligible age of supporting pagan practices. I'm assuming the area bears the Saint's name because of the fishing industry, being developed right along the water. Hm... I couldn't imagine a Baron fishing xD.
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