I've thought of this myself and were discussing it on some other outlets, so I thought I would share a link on the subject, he's not any sort of authority, but sometimes it's best to just put things out there, he shows a veve and a goetic seal:
www.frateralastor.com/veve.htm
This link is old but there are a few too many similarities between vodou veve's and goetic sigils of evocation.
Many of the entities share the same common goal.
So let your theories fly, which came first the chicken or the egg?
www.frateralastor.com/veve.htm
This link is old but there are a few too many similarities between vodou veve's and goetic sigils of evocation.
Many of the entities share the same common goal.
So let your theories fly, which came first the chicken or the egg?
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Re: Goetia/Voudou connection
Fri, April 23, 2004 - 4:45 PMSomething the frater doesn't seem to talk about is the experience of contacting each of the spirits within their own ritual context. If asked, does one know whom the other is, or do they claim to be the same entity?
Curious, indeed.
Heh. Presuming that they're representations of the same spirit(s), maybe they're just friendlier and more open to negotiation when they're not confined to a triangle and threatened with "I'll burn your sigil if you don't obey!" or "I'll put you in this brass bottle if you don't obey!" I know that *I* would react better to rum and cigars, given the option.
On a side note, I've still never seen anyone try Goetic possession, though I've often joked about duct-taping someone to a chair and trying it out. -
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Re: Goetia/Voudou connection
Fri, April 23, 2004 - 4:49 PMI've actually worked with goetic possession before..
Basically you have the person wear the goetic sigil around their neck.. and proceed from there. You can also use body paint and engage in sexual magick, depending on the rite.
I don't use a triangle anymore I use an old TV with snow and draw the sigil on the TV in dry erase marker.
The threats don't work so well.. heh. I find the entities respond better to kind speak and wheeling and dealing.
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Unsu...
Re: Goetia/Voudou connection
Wed, April 28, 2004 - 3:22 PMI don't use a triangle anymore I use an old TV with snow and draw the sigil on the TV in dry erase marker.
The threats don't work so well.. heh. I find the entities respond better to kind speak and wheeling and dealing.
Pedantic Asshole here again. Might I ask what were the better responses? Were those better responses compared to just threats or better responses compared to threats made while one copy of the sigil is in a duly consecrated triangle that has several god names about it while smacking the other copy of the sigil with a duly consecrated sword all while wearing the appropriate seals of Solomon?
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Re: Goetia/Voudou connection
Mon, April 26, 2004 - 3:40 PMYou've inspired a friend and I to try a couple of these cross over sigils and ask if they may be the same manifestation.. that's kinda why I posted this to see if anyone else had that sorta experience.
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Unsu...
Re: Goetia/Voudou connection
Wed, April 28, 2004 - 3:11 PMAs pedantic asshole of the day, and as someone who knows you (though you might try to disavow me. Aloha!) I'm afraid I'll have to intergect that you have at least read examples of Goetic possession teqhniques. What I had in mind was the detailed example that occurs in Gerald Gardner's High Magic's Aide. Beyond that I believe The Black Pullet and the Picatrix
give instructions which probably come from older sources possibly like the ones found in the various Greek Demotic Papyri.
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Unsu...
Re: Goetia/Voudou connection
Wed, April 28, 2004 - 7:43 PM<<Something the frater doesn't seem to talk about is the experience of contacting each of the spirits within their own ritual context. If asked, does one know whom the other is, or do they claim to be the same entity?>>
According to books I've read, when you encounter a spiritual being in an astral realm, you're supposed to ask qualifying questions of said spiritual being to make sure that they are who they say they are (archangel, planetary daemon, what-have-you), or propose some kind of deal about truth-telling. Apparently spiritual beings are crafty and lie a lot.
From personal experience working w/the Kabbalistic Kingdoms of the Tree of Life, when I encountered a spiritual being in my astral travels, I let them approach me instead of shouting out to them.
Also, in my own personal experience, from these approaches, spiritual beings usually tell you things you don't want to hear. I've got to try out that method of smacking a ceremonial sword against a sigil in a threatening manner while poised w/a properly robed foot over another and commanding spiritual beings while they are trapped in a tiny triangular drawing on the floor - maybe I'll get to hear things I really want to hear instead. -
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Unsu...
Re: Goetia/Voudou connection
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 2:48 PMWhen I first moved to New Orleans (1995), I noticed that there were a few occult stores that sold little slips of parchment style paper with symbols that looked a lot like Goetic sigils, but had the names of Haitian Lwa. The symbols didn't resemble any ve-ves that I knew of, and inquiries didn't take me too far at the time so I just dismissed it then. A couple years later I found a book in Charles Gandolfo's library written by Robert Pelton that seems to have been the source for those particular Talismans ("talismans" is the name that they were being sold as in the stores). My conclusion is that Pelton took a basic book such as "Secrets of Voodoo" or "Voodoo in Haiti", used the names of the Lwa and then chose certain sigils from the Goetia for convenience or some other reason. It also seemed to me that he simply altered a small detail here or there. I forgot what the name of the book was, as I never saw it again, and the copy I looked through was pretty old- from the 50s maybe.
Around 1998 another fancy Wicca shop was selling the Goetic looking sigils in the form of silver pendants. I asked the young man at the counter about them and he swore that they were actually authentic veves used by a bona fide New Orleans Voodoo group from around Marie Laveau's time. Having gotten use to hearing such claims around New Orleans, I knew better than to try to contradict his statements, so I just stuck to my own conclusions. However, it would have been nice if his claims could have actually been proven, or at least if there was factual evidence that Goetic symbols were being used by New Orleans Voodooists at the turn of the 20th century. Rumor has it that Eliphaz Levi was popular in Haiti around then... According to Robert Tallant, there was a newspaper article from about 1840 that reports a Voodoo ceremony that included a big rag doll covered in qabalistic symbols. I would have been interested to know what actual symbols were used. -
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Re: Goetia/Voudou connection
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 6:53 PMFirst of all, I want to say that you have been asking some very well-written questions that definitely show that you have put considerable thought into the matter. it is unfortunate that many of the responses seem snotty and dismissive. OK, now that I have said that: The book is < Voodoo Charms and Talismans> by Robert Pelton which was published in 1973. The symbols are from The Black Pullet, a late 18th century grimoire. I believe you may be able to find it online somewhere. It was published in Paris in mulitple editions, so certainly could have found its way to Haiti or New Orleans.
Pelton's book is really hoodoo, in the sense that it involves spellcraft and is not part of any coherent religious or devotional practice.
There are a number of other grimoires that seem to have found their way into parts of Bizango altars, along with all sorts of Masonic symbols. -
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Re: Goetia/Voudou connection
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 7:00 PMHere is the Black Pullet
www.hermetics.org/pdf/grimo...ullett.pdf
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Unsu...
Re: Goetia/Voudou connection
Tue, December 18, 2007 - 11:37 PMHi James-
Thank you so much for that respectful reply; I sincerely appreciated it.
I have come across recent reprints of "Voodoo Charms and Talismans", but unfortunately that wasn't the book I remember. The one I am refering to was a lot longer. I am thinking that maybe it was reduced and all the information from the original printing might have been edited for copyright reasons...? I guess I would have liked to have seen that particular book just for nostalgic reasons, or just for piece of mind. Some how the actual information isn't as important to me these days as it was when Vodou and Hoodoo was so new to me. I am very fond of the veves of Milo Rigaud, and those in "The Book of Vodou", "Voodoo: Search for the Spirit", "Voodoo in Haiti" and "Vodou Visions"- the aesthetic really appeals to me.
Snotty and dismissive replies are probably to be expected. I am just glad that there are people like you who are considerate and kind enough to make it worth while to risk asking the kind of questions that I ask. I noticed that many people have unsubscribed. I hope they eventually found productive responses some where or another. I can't always be sure of where a person's heart is, but I usually hope those that are soul searching have better chances at finding what they are looking for. Nice to hear from you again!
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Re: Goetia/Voudou connection
Thu, December 20, 2007 - 4:48 AM" Having gotten use to hearing such claims around New Orleans, I knew better than to try to contradict his statements"
LOL. Good one! and too true.. when I see the name Charles Gandolfo I run the other direction, NOLA people can be so gullible. I'm glad I know the people there that have a lick of sense.
mike -
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Re: Goetia/Voudou connection
Tue, December 25, 2007 - 4:18 PMIn one of those <spooky> synchronicities, I just got back from San Diego where I wandered into a used book store and was digging through the shelf and found two Robert W. Pelton hardbacks: Voodoo Secrets from A to Z, and The Complete Book of Voodoo. Both of them have quite a few of those peculiar symbol/sigil/veve-almost-things that look somewhat cartoonish. A couple are almost exactly like goetic sigils, a few have scribbled demon heads (for Azeto, a loup-garou) . The one I thought was by far the cutest was a little black owl with a white cross on her breast sitting on a branch, described as Marinette-Bwa-Chech... said to be<most feared> and <a serpent of evil.> I believe I have one of these from the old Witchcraft Shop on St. Philip St.
I have never seen these anywhere else. At first whiff they seem pretty hokey, but I wonder if someone out there knows more about them. -
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Unsu...
Re: Goetia/Voudou connection
Fri, December 28, 2007 - 2:40 PMMarinette-Bwa-Chech ("dry wood"? "dry arms"?is one of the many names associated with that lwa who is alleged to the ONE who started the Haitian Revolution in Bois Cayman. Others are an Ogou from the Petro Nanchon, and Erzuli Ge-Rouge... "The Complete Book of Voodoo" is the one I was talking about. I like Haitian Ve-ves for Haitian Lwas, and I think Goetic talismans are interesting for what they are, and for the time being, should stick to Goetic spirits. Maybe some day, a "nanchon" of Hebrew and qabalistic "Lwa" might be honored in Haiti or among Haitian-American immigrants, and as there are Petro Legbas, Erzulis, Ogous, Damballahs, etc. maybe there will be Goetic Legbas, Erzulis, Ogous, Damballahs- or Legba Solomon and Erzuli Solomon? Whatever. -
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Re: Goetia/Voudou connection
Fri, May 23, 2008 - 9:49 AMGoethia is unnecessary for the Frabato initiate or RTRRT majikian, however it may be used, knowing that a partial unbalance of the 5 elements does not make for stable results. various trance states are described according to the elements they disassociate from. The contrary are cults that have nothing to do with ratio e.g. Sai Baba has ben born on Nov 23rd with sun in Libra. He has an observatory next to home that he could use for this observation which I mailed to him as being universally true, namely astronomically correct according to any observatory on earth, Puttaparthy including. America has been born with Serpens Cauda, the tail of the snake ascending, but it might have as well been Aquila or the eagle rising at east in Philadelphia. The first ones to unschool are our masoinic forefathers who knew nothing of astronomy, just wore funny kilts, that in turn have nothing to do with one-eyed pyramids and KEM or Egypt. lulu.com/astrology Unschooling the Zodiac since 1992.
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